All you women out there, I love you. I really do, and I hope nothing I say in this post gives you reason to suspect otherwise. A week or so back, Adam Carolla made some rather unfortunate comments about women not being funny. It's not my goal here to discuss this very, very tired argument any further, but I know that some people get confused easily, so let me start by making it perfectly clear that I could not disagree with him more. Some of my favorite comics in town are women, something, something, I'm into women's lib.
There are a lot of people (men and women) in this world that I can't stand, and one of the things that connects most of them is that they see the world as a zero-sum game. We're trained from an early age to see other people's wins as our losses, and when you immerse yourself in a lifestyle that is so generally desperate and full of struggle as doing stand up, it's hard not to see a booking someone else gets as nothing more than one more set you're not doing. It's bad enough when individuals look at the world this way (see: last year's JFL lead-up), but when larger groups start to interpret things like this, big bullshit problems pop up that can never really be solved.
When big groups start thinking they're playing a zero-sum game, we get all that bullshit about Southside vs Northside. We get the conversations about whether women are funny or not. These are issues we can argue about all day and get nowhere.
Now, I have no interest in defending Adam Carolla, mostly because everything he said is pretty demonstrably false. However, this shit is a two way street, and since people have been making such a big deal of this, I would feel remiss not to point out that there are multiple shows in town that do not allow any male performers. Don't get me wrong, I would never make the argument that men are victims, but I'm totally comfortable saying that it's horseshit to complain about some shock-jock saying sexist things but being totally cool with shows that are quite literally segregated.
I accept that as a heterosexual, white male, it's inherently stupid for me to complain about any of these issues, but this just strikes me as such amazing nonsense. When you refuse to book a certain type of person on your show, you can really only be doing so for one of two reasons. The first possibility is that you don't think people of that type are funny, so you don't want them on your show. Holding this belief makes you an asshole. The second possibility is that you accept that people of that type are funny, but you like the kind of show and atmosphere you can create when they aren't involved. I'm not sure what that makes one, but I think it's something slightly worse than chauvinistic.
What I'm getting at is that we're all in this thing together, so let's all love each other a little more.
Dan Friesen
Contributing Writer
Now, I have no interest in defending Adam Carolla, mostly because everything he said is pretty demonstrably false. However, this shit is a two way street, and since people have been making such a big deal of this, I would feel remiss not to point out that there are multiple shows in town that do not allow any male performers. Don't get me wrong, I would never make the argument that men are victims, but I'm totally comfortable saying that it's horseshit to complain about some shock-jock saying sexist things but being totally cool with shows that are quite literally segregated.
I accept that as a heterosexual, white male, it's inherently stupid for me to complain about any of these issues, but this just strikes me as such amazing nonsense. When you refuse to book a certain type of person on your show, you can really only be doing so for one of two reasons. The first possibility is that you don't think people of that type are funny, so you don't want them on your show. Holding this belief makes you an asshole. The second possibility is that you accept that people of that type are funny, but you like the kind of show and atmosphere you can create when they aren't involved. I'm not sure what that makes one, but I think it's something slightly worse than chauvinistic.What I'm getting at is that we're all in this thing together, so let's all love each other a little more.
Dan Friesen
Contributing Writer
I don't see anything wrong with producers creating shows that focus on one particular type of comedian, so long as these shows don't represent a sizable share of the landscape. If a club wants to create and market a show that focuses on Latino comics, Asian comics, raunchy comics, high-school comics, or raunchy Asian/Latino high-school comics, that doesn't seem wrong, unless it's the only show in town.
ReplyDeleteI get the sense that you are lobbying for the title of my arch nemesis. I think shows that focus on one race or subset are lame and kind of insulting, but I see you don't agree. Maybe this approach will strike you better: running a show should, ideally, be about putting on the best possible show, and since this is comedy we're talking about, "best" translates to "funniest." Shows that only include one type of person basically send the message "not having your kind of person involved is worth more to me than how much funny you could bring to the show," which is an attitude I am not thrilled with.
ReplyDeleteThe quality of a whole show isn't necessarily equal to the sum of its parts. Some comedians are excellent hosts. Replacing a talented host with another comedian who's marginally funnier but a terrible host won't improve the show. Similarly, having a lineup of friends who know each others' material and can play off it will probably produce a stronger show than just throwing random comics together for the first time. Comedy is a team sport.
DeleteWith shows that focus on a particular sub-group, they're often aimed at a specific audience that wants to see a certain type of material. Assembling that lineup may be the only way to get them out to the show. So it's not zero-sum.
Dan, I am fan of yours, so I don't want you ever to feel left out. But I think you are missing the point here. Female only shows have been created to provide a welcoming space for women NOT to make men feel left out. As you are not a lady, you might not understand that the 8,000 male masturbation jokes told at every show and open mic, doesn't necessarily make us feel comfortable. Most of us can handle it, but it isn't exactly encouraging. Comedy has long been male dominated and while there are a lot of female comics out there now, we still need to need those places that give us more stage time and make us feel welcome. This isn't meant to exclude, it is meant to get more women included. And I totally understand that you are bummed you are not in the kates! It is awesome! But the tough reality is that women are not at a point yet where opportunities are as available for them as they are for men. If you ever want to talk about this in-person, I am happy to explain more about being a lady in comedy. Most of the ladies I know who run all female shows, also run shows that are co-ed because we respect all our fellow comics. Thanks for thinking the world has gotten to a point where sexism is a thing of the past. It means there is hope.
ReplyDeleteConcurring with this mysterious Other "alexandra" :)
DeleteHow weird is it that there are two reasonable ladies interested in Chicago comedy, who are named "alexandra"?
Coincidence? We shall see? Or maybe there are mysterious forces in the Universe whose will it is that We will NOT see!
Hmm!
Everything happens for a reason, right Mr. Carolla?
For serious, I listened to every single one of his podcasts for the first year+. This is really sort of disappointing.
That being said--I still think Adam Carolla is an astute observer of the human condition, and a passionate, passionate man. A lover AND a fighter. Dialectical Thinking.
Other Alexandra, I TOTALLY agree. Adam has always been a favorite comedian of mine. I have been a loyal listener since back in the day. It was always clear that he has issues with women in general, so it isn't surprising, but it is a total bummer. Why did he have Teresa Strasser (sp?) on so long if he thought she sucked?
DeleteAlexandra, quite sincerely I'm a fan of yours as well, and I completely appreciate where you're coming from. Your feelings are valid and I do support what you are working toward (namely, more women who are better performers). I cannot argue about the fairness of society or whether women get a fair shake in stand up; that's not something I have a ton of first hand experience with. I'm sure it is hard, and I'm sorry that a lot of guys are assholes. I apologize, but I can't really respond to most of the stuff you wrote, because, well because I can't.
ReplyDeleteThat said, you kind of are agreeing with what I wrote. You are saying that you accept that men are funny, but that men being around (with their horrible dick jokes and such) can make women "uncomfortable," and thus, you prefer to create a comfortable environment without men. Is that a fair understanding of what you're saying?
This was in response to the first Alexandra, for the record.
DeleteI would say that isn't quite right. I wouldn't say I prefer to create/perform without men around nor do I think I a comfortable environment without men is always my preference. That isn't entirely true. But I do find that having an opportunity to have separate creative space with women helps me hone my craft in ways that I wouldn't with men around. Let's face it, a lot of women are trying so hard not to look stupid, or ugly in front of men, that is just one thing that takes away from them taking risks in front of men. But that is not to say they are not in the audience. So, I would say that it is a lot about support. Women support women in a different way than men can. It is just how we are wired. There are men that are empathetic, but the way they express it is different than women. A hug from your mom is not the same as a hug from your dad, as I am sure it is different for you to hang out with your guy friends than a group of gals. That is not say that women and men don't need each other to grow. We all really do. Here is where I am at...Creating without men around does a couple of things: A) doesn't pit female against female. A fellow comic and woman just mentioned today how frustrating it is to be one of two women on a line-up and have the audience compare you to the other woman. She mentioned "you're funny for a girl" being implied when being told they liked the show. W-T-fuck? This comparison between women is especially annoying because it sucks to be measured up to anyone else in your show. (not to mention that other comic is probably your friend) Who gives a crap who your college buddy thought was the best? (that applies to any performer) AND it blows because, why should I only be compared to another woman? We're not in competition. We just happen to have the same career/hobby/interest. B) it offers an opportunity for women to inspire other women. We all need role models. While I admire plenty of men doing comedy, it is always nice to watch my female comic friends kick ass and show me how it can be done. [This message got erased like three times, so hope that makes sense.] I would say that your last statement in your article implies that it is similar attitude to being chauvinistic and I take issue with that. Women are not saying we are better than men in the comedy world. We are saying our support comes from a different place than yours. Dick jokes don't always make me uncomfortable and women are capable of some pretty blue humor, but the support I get from an audience who is there to support women and the support I get from my fellow female comics is priceless. I will always treat my comic friends with the same respect and I will always make them hug me at the end of the show. It is just what I do. So, I am down with people being more supportive throughout the community, but why do we have to do that the expense of important comedic opportunities for women?
DeleteI love me some Dan Friesen and I enjoy respectful dialogue on this topic, so thank you for opening the door with your article. As a comedian who does produce, host and book an all-female show and teach an all-female stand up class I would simply like to explain why I have chosen to do so.
ReplyDeleteI think comedy is the voice of reason in a world gone a bit wonky but that voice can’t truly be heard without everyone grabbing the microphone. I was going out to shows and open mics and simply noticed there weren’t as many women on the mic as men. (Which is not the same old “women aren’t funny” argument but rather a “where the heck are all the women” question.) I wanted to see more women on the scene. So, I decided to increase the numbers. How? By giving women a place to work. Because I firmly believe comedy is all about the work. I wanted women performing and writing as much as possible. I specifically choose to create an all-female show to nurture those voices I didn’t hear. The exclusion of men was never intended to be a slight towards the male gender. It was a byproduct of the greater goal, giving women opportunities. I created my own space to achieve this and isn’t that the beauty of Chicago? Isn’t that what shows like Chicago Underground Comedy and Comedians You Should Know did? They shifted the landscape of local comedy by creating their own spaces and the community is growing because of it. I created an all-female show to strength Chicago’s comedy community. I believe nurturing these voices is needed to find our community’s true potential.
Dan, thanks again for your article.
Kelsie Huff
P to the S We are all outsiders with brains full of jacked up ideas we need to anxiously scribble down into tiny notebooks and scream into microphones. It really shouldn’t matter what we have between our legs. Wieners or Vaginas, we’re all a fucking weirdos!
I agree. The world has gone a bit wonky...
Deletegreat comments all...
ReplyDeleteHey Hey! What, when, and where are the all female shows? I’ve only been to one in Lincoln Square. Is there a list? Probably on this website- I will explore!
ReplyDeleteActually that's a great point Seth... we really only have one all female show listed and that's the bi-weekly showcase at Zanies, we'd love to post more but can only help promote what we know about, showcases listed have either sent us a press release or email giving us a heads up... If you folks know about an all female showcase we don't have listed let us know about it... or have them shoot us an email... thanks!
ReplyDeleteI'll email ya'll the kates info now. Thanks for the heads up, we would love to be included on this rad cakes site.
ReplyDeleteSeth, here a few shows for ya.
the kates (the Lincoln Square one) http://www.thekates.org/
Beast Women (light night cabaret not just stand up) http://www.beastwomenproductions.com/
the Go Go Show at the Loft on Lincoln (I can't find a link for that one)
Lady Bros https://www.facebook.com/events/380543825335544/?context=create
CLIC http://ladiesincomedy.org/
hope this helps out! Kelsie
U R the business Kelsie, thanks!
ReplyDeleteThanks again for getting the kates banner up so quickly on your site...U R the business as well!
Deleteany time! i super dig this site and what ya'll are doing.
ReplyDeleteFemale Funnies at Zanies is actually only once a month.
ReplyDeleteThanks! Will update ASAP... see... thats the internet at work folks...
ReplyDeleteI think... the reasoning behind these all girls show is sound.
ReplyDeleteBut, why can't they be girl-friendly showcases instead of girl-only?
That's my feeling on the matter. There are plenty of male comics who would fit in very easily in a girl-friendly show (probably not me, despite my general girl-friendliness) and not disrupt the supportive, nurturing environment.
DeleteAdam Carolla didnt necessarily say all women aren't funny, just that if you play the odds, men are more likely. I dont think that's necessarily a crazy thing to say. You can blame it on the sociology of our culture as a whole and the roles we force and cultivate women to play, but that only explains why there's 4 girls at the 35 person open mic, it doesnt make more open mic girls exist.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but reading and understanding the entire interview wouldn't be a knee jerk reaction that allows people to demonstrate their fake outrage in order to show off what a supporter of the ladies they are. It's patronizing, pandering, and just sad.
DeleteThis may be the most unintentionally hilarious comment I've ever seen. It begins with you defending Carolla, saying that people need to "read and understand the entire interview," then complains about knee-jerk reactions, then closes up nicely with a knee-jerk reaction that proves to me beyond a doubt you didn't even come close to reading and understanding the entire article.
DeleteThanks for "reading!"
Having decent reading comprehension is not "defending Carolla". Maybe that wonky eye of yours is making it hard for you to read. I said "people", not "Crosseyed Dan". I was talking about the general reaction to the Carolla interview, which you're several days behind with this pandering livejournal entry, BTW. Way to be topical.
DeleteI suppose I deserve that for going a little mean. That said, I would like to know who I am pandering to. Also, sorry my comments were a little late. It would have come sooner, but I was really busy trying to uncross my eye.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteKristin, I do appreciate you getting my back, but I should point out that I do in fact have a cross eye.
DeleteHuh really - I guess I am not very observant! Either way it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I deleted my post because I felt it was unproductive and I didn't want to feed the trolls.
DeleteKelsie and Alexandra: I do like and respect you both very much, so I am really glad this hasn't deteriorated into something ugly. I want to respond in greater detail to a lot of the points you both make, but the truth is that I don't really disagree with all that much of what you're saying.
ReplyDeleteI feel like we're talking about two different things, and not quite understanding each other. I am not suggesting that your motives are malicious in excluding men, that was not my point. You are talking about your intentions (which are good), and I'm talking about the very idea of having segregated shows (which is not good).
I think that, when one is starting up a show, creating an atmosphere is one of the most important parts of their job, and I totally get that you would want to create a supportive, nurturing place. In order to maintain your atmosphere, you have to book your shows accordingly, and make sure your hosts and producers embody the spirit you want to characterize your show. That is all good, and something that anyone who's run a halfway decent show has had to consider. I just think that you can foster exactly the sort of environment you are talking about by making decisions on a case-by-case basis instead of just deciding that you want to help out women, so no men. I don't really understand how that helps anyone, including women.
Nice write up Dan. I have nothing great to add here, but I enjoyed the read.
ReplyDeleteWomen are fortunate to have a big man like Dan Friesen stick up for them against big bad Adam Carolla. Because god knows, women can't defend themselves.
ReplyDeleteHey Carla, how about you take that snarky, cliche bullshit elsewhere? I got no fucking time for it.
DeleteBut you "got time" to reply to it. We don't need you, Dan. Champion your own cause and quit patronizing us.
DeleteCarla, do you know how to read? Do you sincerely think that my point was that I want to champion the cause of women in comedy? Because that wasn't my point at all. Seriously, I advise you to take a breath, actually read things you feel like commenting on, and leave that huge chip on your shoulder out of it.
DeleteI don't think Carla is very funny.
ReplyDeleteWho the fuck is Carla?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure it's Hogan trolling me.
DeleteHi Dan
ReplyDeleteI really dig that we can have an e-dialogue on this. Coming to an understanding of one another and learning to empathize with other comedians is one of the things will make Chicago a super unique and powerful place to do comedy! Although I may not 100% agree with all your points about segregated shows I can see where you are coming from and appreciate your approach on this topic. Plus, I think this type of back and forth is a huge lunge away from the "zero sum game" mentality you discussed in your article. Which is also rad. I also hope our conversation will encourage you to come out our show. the kates would love to see your face, I would enjoy getting your feedback, and sometimes I buy cupcakes during the show...so there's that!
I will definitely take you up on that. And I want you to take this threat very seriously, Kelsie Huff: if there aren't cupcakes at that show, you can expect a scathing review on this site about how all women do is pull "bait-and-switches."
DeleteCome this Saturday Dan, I'm in the show and then we're going to see YFF!
DeleteUnderstood! ;)
DeleteFirstly not trolling. I like this article. But remember this is an opinion piece. Dan is not pandering or talking down to anyone. He is respectfully defending his position.
ReplyDeleteDanny Boy, you, your crossed-eye, and "patronizing defense" of women in comedy are all right by me!
ReplyDeleteI heard Dan's eye went cross eyed because he was so mad that he couldn't get on the Kates...That's your fault Huff!
ReplyDelete